Sept. 3, 2026
Small Late-Summer Colonies with Anne Frey (299)
Apple Podcasts 
YouTube 
Spotify 
Amazon Music 
Overcast 
Castro 
RSS Feed Late summer can expose the colonies that simply haven’t kept pace. Maybe they’re late splits, small nucs, colonies recovering from swarming, or colonies that never developed the population you expected. What should you do with them before winter?
In this episode of Honey Bee Obscura, Jim Tew welcomes Anne Frey of Betterbee for a practical conversation about managing small colonies as summer gives way to fall.
Anne and Jim discuss how small a colony can be and still have a reasonable chance of overwintering, along with ways beekeepers can improve those odds. That includes making sure Varroa mites are under control, providing adequate honey and pollen, donating resources from stronger colonies, reducing environmental stresses, adding top insulation, and positioning small colonies so they can benefit from shared warmth.
They also explore overwintering nucs above stronger colonies using double-screen boards, multi-compartment equipment, equalizing colonies with frames of capped brood, and when simply combining two weak colonies may be the better choice.
And what about moving colonies indoors—or even hauling them hundreds of miles south? Jim has stories about both.
The bottom line: small colonies require extra attention, realistic expectations, and sometimes a willingness to cut your losses while protecting valuable drawn comb for another season.
______________________
Thanks to Betterbee for sponsoring today's episode. Betterbee’s mission is to support every beekeeper with excellent customer service, continued education and quality equipment. From their colorful and informative catalog to their support of beekeeper educational activities, including this podcast series, Betterbee truly is Beekeepers Serving Beekeepers. See for yourself at www.betterbee.com
We’d like to thank Vita Bee Health for supporting the podcast. Vita provides proven tools for controlling Varroa—from Apistan and Apiguard to the new VarroxSan extended-release oxalic acid strips—helping beekeepers keep stronger, healthier colonies.
Thanks to Bee Culture, the Magazine of American Beekeeping, for their support of Honey Bee Obscura. Available in print and digital at www.beeculture.com
______________________
Honey Bee Obscura is brought to you by Growing Planet Media, LLC, the home of Beekeeping Today Podcast.
Music: Heart & Soul by Gyom, All We Know by Midway Music; Christmas Avenue by Immersive Music; original guitar music by Jeffrey Ott
Cartoons by: John Martin (Beezwax Comics)
Copyright © 2026 by Growing Planet Media, LLC
WEBVTT
00:00:01.600 --> 00:00:14.240
Beekeepers is basically a fundamental goal of all other beekeepers and you to get the biggest hives we can, the healthiest hives, the most honey, the most pollination, the most everything.
00:00:14.460 --> 00:00:16.860
Well, the most isn't always possible.
00:00:16.860 --> 00:00:22.380
Sometimes you got the lesser producers, the smaller hives at the wrong time of the year.
00:00:22.280 --> 00:00:23.960
What are you gonna do with those?
00:00:23.960 --> 00:00:26.600
Anne Frey, I'm happy to tell you from Betterbee.
00:00:26.600 --> 00:00:27.720
Say hi, Ann.
00:00:27.720 --> 00:00:29.240
Hi, glad to be here.
00:00:29.240 --> 00:00:33.240
Ann's gonna tell us all about what to do with small hives
00:00:33.280 --> 00:00:35.280
What you said it was a conversation.
00:00:35.440 --> 00:00:38.960
Oh, it'll be yeah, it's just me telling the people what you're saying.
00:00:38.960 --> 00:00:41.120
No, what do with small hives right now?
00:00:41.120 --> 00:00:42.400
It's late summer
00:00:42.460 --> 00:00:44.219
goldenrod's just coming on.
00:00:44.219 --> 00:00:51.820
You got the last window, beekeepers, from most of us here in the upper Midwest, upstate New York.
00:00:51.820 --> 00:00:54.620
What do you want to do with this last window that we've got?
00:00:54.620 --> 00:00:56.220
I want to talk about that for a while.
00:00:56.220 --> 00:00:57.180
What do a small house?
00:00:57.780 --> 00:00:59.460
in the late summer, early fall.
00:00:59.460 --> 00:01:12.260
Beekeepers, I'm Jim Tew and I come to you here at Honey Bee Obscura once a week where today Anne Frey and I are going to try to talk about what to do with small hives in early late summer.
00:01:12.620 --> 00:01:13.820
Early fall.
00:01:13.820 --> 00:01:23.660
Welcome to Honey Bee Obscura, brought to you by Growing Planet Media, the producers of the Beekeeping Today podcast.
00:01:23.660 --> 00:01:26.940
Join Jim Tew, your guide through the complexities
00:01:27.700 --> 00:01:32.580
The beauty, the fun, and the challenges of managing honey bees.
00:01:32.580 --> 00:01:39.380
Jim hosts fun and interesting guests who take a deep dive into the intricate world of honey bees.
00:01:39.380 --> 00:01:42.260
Whether you're a seasoned beekeeper or just getting started,
00:01:42.860 --> 00:01:48.140
Get ready for some plain talk that'll delve into all things honey bees.
00:01:48.140 --> 00:01:48.940
Ann?
00:01:48.940 --> 00:01:49.820
Hi Jim.
00:01:49.820 --> 00:01:50.940
How's it going?
00:01:50.940 --> 00:01:52.620
It's going fine.
00:01:52.720 --> 00:01:58.000
We've got like you said goldenrod but I think ours is more like close to the peak.
00:01:58.000 --> 00:01:59.920
Yeah, mine's just starting.
00:01:59.920 --> 00:02:07.360
I'm gonna tell this the whole crowd the story and the last one of the last times Ann and I talked, she had a horrible cold.
00:02:06.760 --> 00:02:09.160
And she just coughed, cough, coughed.
00:02:09.160 --> 00:02:11.160
You seem a lot better today, Ann.
00:02:11.160 --> 00:02:13.800
Everything seems like it's going along better for you.
00:02:13.800 --> 00:02:15.080
Fingers crossed
00:02:15.240 --> 00:02:16.600
Fingers crossed.
00:02:16.600 --> 00:02:19.720
And do you have any small colonies you have to deal with now?
00:02:19.720 --> 00:02:24.200
As this is where you can be very prideful and say no, you keep your colonies strong.
00:02:24.200 --> 00:02:28.360
You never have small colonies, but if you had small colonies now
00:02:28.640 --> 00:02:30.720
What direction would you take?
00:02:30.720 --> 00:02:38.640
In a strange way, probably two-thirds to three quarters of what we have is small colonies, 'cause that's the nucs.
00:02:38.300 --> 00:02:44.940
You know, those are seven to eight, possibly twelve frames, deep frames, but more likely they're eight.
00:02:44.940 --> 00:02:48.380
So those are small, but small on purpose.
00:02:48.440 --> 00:02:57.080
Are you talking about colonies that are having troubles or they had like an August swarm and therefore the remainder is small?
00:02:57.080 --> 00:02:59.080
Feel like that's what we're talking about.
00:02:59.160 --> 00:03:00.519
All those are options.
00:03:00.519 --> 00:03:03.160
Basically for whatever reason.
00:03:03.020 --> 00:03:07.099
I have a small hive right now, the last of August.
00:03:07.099 --> 00:03:11.099
I'm coming up on my final fall flow, which is never very good.
00:03:11.099 --> 00:03:13.980
It's never just really, oh my heavens, get back.
00:03:13.980 --> 00:03:16.459
This flow is really going strong
00:03:16.879 --> 00:03:22.239
So I'm probably going to have to combine do something, and that's what I'd like for us to talk about.
00:03:22.239 --> 00:03:25.680
What do you do with a small hive other than just let it die in the winter?
00:03:25.680 --> 00:03:26.799
Oh yeah, yeah.
00:03:26.799 --> 00:03:29.439
I wouldn't just do that because uh
00:03:29.940 --> 00:03:31.300
There's always a chance.
00:03:31.300 --> 00:03:34.500
We got the tiniest little colonies through the winter.
00:03:34.500 --> 00:03:38.099
One uh October we found a colony of
00:03:38.440 --> 00:03:43.080
just combs, uh some bees and a homeowner said, What's this up here?
00:03:43.160 --> 00:03:48.519
And we went and fetched it and I didn't have a lot of hope, but we put it
00:03:48.720 --> 00:03:54.079
above a large colony with a double screenboard as its floor.
00:03:54.079 --> 00:03:57.599
So we took off the inner cover and we put on a double screenboard.
00:03:57.400 --> 00:04:01.239
And then we put an inner cover, an outer cover on top of the little one.
00:04:01.239 --> 00:04:07.640
And they got all that warmth from the one below, maybe, you know, and humidity from the one below.
00:04:07.380 --> 00:04:08.740
They live through the winter.
00:04:08.740 --> 00:04:13.940
We gave them some honey on the sides as a donation from other hives.
00:04:13.940 --> 00:04:18.980
Uh we did not give them any extra brood frames or bees.
00:04:18.980 --> 00:04:19.700
They just
00:04:20.199 --> 00:04:24.440
They just made it and they turned into a full size hive the next summer.
00:04:24.440 --> 00:04:25.960
So that's one way.
00:04:25.960 --> 00:04:27.080
We didn't unite.
00:04:27.080 --> 00:04:28.199
We just sort of
00:04:28.620 --> 00:04:33.340
gave them a few things from the one below, the warmth and the honey.
00:04:33.340 --> 00:04:35.180
So there's an idea.
00:04:35.259 --> 00:04:38.620
Well the one thing you just described to me was patience.
00:04:38.940 --> 00:04:46.300
You had to wait almost a full season, a full year for that to turn into a meaningful beehive
00:04:46.360 --> 00:04:47.640
And there's no way to rush it.
00:04:47.960 --> 00:04:56.360
We waited from October to April to see how it did and then we moved it into bigger equipment and it got big on its own during that summer.
00:04:56.360 --> 00:04:59.480
So I'd argue that it was more like six months.
00:04:59.120 --> 00:05:00.639
Okay, well that's not bad.
00:05:00.639 --> 00:05:02.479
You still had patience, though.
00:05:02.479 --> 00:05:03.919
I'm pretty patient.
00:05:03.919 --> 00:05:04.960
What do you do now?
00:05:04.960 --> 00:05:07.120
Do you want to set up a hypothetical situation?
00:05:07.120 --> 00:05:10.560
I'm a beekeeper with ten hives and three are not winterable
00:05:10.760 --> 00:05:14.040
There are eight frames, ten frames at the most.
00:05:14.040 --> 00:05:15.080
Do I combine them?
00:05:15.080 --> 00:05:18.520
Do I double screen them and see if they can help each other or
00:05:18.960 --> 00:05:24.720
As a professional beekeeper, what would you do with three out of ten that were not going to make it on their own?
00:05:24.720 --> 00:05:26.639
Okay, so three out of those ten
00:05:27.039 --> 00:05:30.639
And each one is like eight frames of covered in bees?
00:05:30.720 --> 00:05:37.120
We'll just say eight frames, brood in bees, and they have got a recent queen, maybe it's a late swarm, whatever you want it to be.
00:05:37.120 --> 00:05:38.879
Yeah, I would make sure
00:05:39.220 --> 00:05:41.060
They were healthy.
00:05:41.060 --> 00:05:43.780
They're their mites were dead.
00:05:43.780 --> 00:05:48.820
Make sure that they have frames full of honey and some pollen.
00:05:48.820 --> 00:05:52.340
You might have to find some from bigger hives to donate to them
00:05:52.440 --> 00:05:58.520
That's something I didn't know way, way back when I began was that you could just give donations.
00:05:58.520 --> 00:06:02.840
I just I was like, Well, will this hive collect enough for itself?
00:06:02.840 --> 00:06:05.720
That was the only thing I thought of as a way for
00:06:05.840 --> 00:06:11.440
bees to get supplies or me feeding them sugar syrup and that's valid too.
00:06:11.440 --> 00:06:16.160
You can make donations from donors, you know, if you have more than one hive.
00:06:16.520 --> 00:06:27.080
At the very least, I would shove them tightly together, and that might be awkward with telescoping outer covers, but you know, some kind of creativity with their covers.
00:06:27.080 --> 00:06:27.720
And then
00:06:28.060 --> 00:06:34.139
They don't have cooled air on all four sides or all six sides, bottom and top two.
00:06:34.139 --> 00:06:41.180
Alternatively, you could stack them, like the double screen idea that I said and that you mentioned again
00:06:41.139 --> 00:06:47.540
then the top one has its entrance for one of those little spinny things on the double screen board.
00:06:47.540 --> 00:06:53.699
I would definitely insulate the top or tops if they're side by side and
00:06:54.139 --> 00:07:00.940
You know, just give them every advantage, you know, take away every stress they could have if they're small colonies.
00:07:00.940 --> 00:07:02.540
What do you do with mites in these?
00:07:02.540 --> 00:07:05.180
When's the last mite check you would do?
00:07:05.039 --> 00:07:07.440
on a small colony in late August.
00:07:07.520 --> 00:07:08.560
Mite check.
00:07:08.560 --> 00:07:13.440
Well they're probably getting their treatment in late August or in the first week of September.
00:07:13.440 --> 00:07:17.919
I would advise people to do a mite check a few weeks after that.
00:07:17.720 --> 00:07:21.479
treatment is done, that would be the last mite check.
00:07:21.479 --> 00:07:24.759
But the small colonies, the big ones, we treat them all the same.
00:07:24.759 --> 00:07:28.199
Um every one of them gets a wintertime mite treatment too
00:07:28.139 --> 00:07:29.660
like around Christmas.
00:07:29.660 --> 00:07:33.740
What else are you gonna do on that week after Christmas when you're bored?
00:07:33.740 --> 00:07:37.500
So go take a walk in the winter and treat all your hives.
00:07:37.500 --> 00:07:38.220
So uh
00:07:38.920 --> 00:07:47.720
Yeah, I mean just the overarching idea of taking away every possible stress that any small or big one could have
00:07:47.940 --> 00:07:51.860
You know, like with little house plants or cuttings that you've made.
00:07:51.860 --> 00:07:54.340
I always make this comparison when I give a talk.
00:07:54.340 --> 00:07:58.580
Those things, they need more babying, the small ones.
00:07:58.580 --> 00:07:59.460
You know, they're
00:07:59.760 --> 00:08:01.840
Their dirt gets dry faster.
00:08:02.080 --> 00:08:04.880
They can't deal with so much bright sun, you know.
00:08:04.880 --> 00:08:06.880
So same thing with little colonies.
00:08:06.880 --> 00:08:08.400
They need a little more babying.
00:08:08.639 --> 00:08:11.600
a little more frequent checks, that kind of thing.
00:08:11.600 --> 00:08:14.240
Yeah, you're describing a kitten almost.
00:08:14.240 --> 00:08:15.680
Well, sort of.
00:08:15.680 --> 00:08:16.400
Yeah.
00:08:16.400 --> 00:08:17.440
Or, you know
00:08:17.660 --> 00:08:25.100
You have a teenager, you know it's sort of self sufficient, but when it's a toddler you take care of it more attentively.
00:08:25.100 --> 00:08:27.420
Yep, uh that's exactly right.
00:08:27.080 --> 00:08:35.640
And let's take a break and hear from our sponsor, and then we'll come back and talk about a subject that you said we have beaten to death.
00:08:35.640 --> 00:08:41.960
For more than 45 years, Betterbee has proudly supported beekeepers by offering high quality.
00:08:42.240 --> 00:08:50.720
Quality, innovative products, providing outstanding customer service, many of our staff are beekeepers themselves, and
00:08:51.040 --> 00:08:54.640
Sharing Education to Help Beekeepers Succeed.
00:08:54.640 --> 00:09:01.360
Based in Greenwich, New York, Betterbee serves beekeepers all across the United States.
00:09:01.360 --> 00:09:03.839
Whether you're just getting started
00:09:03.940 --> 00:09:12.180
or a seasoned pro, Betterbee has the products and experience to help you and your bees succeed.
00:09:12.140 --> 00:09:13.900
Visit betterbee.
00:09:13.900 --> 00:09:20.540
com or call 1-800-632-3379.
00:09:20.540 --> 00:09:23.900
Betterbee, your partners in Better Beekeeping
00:09:27.880 --> 00:09:31.560
We'd like to thank Vita Bee Health for supporting this podcast.
00:09:31.560 --> 00:09:35.880
Vita provides proven tools for controlling Varroa, Apistan.
00:09:35.800 --> 00:09:44.600
from Apiguard to the new Varroxsan extended release oxalic acid strips, helping beekeepers keep stronger, healthier colonies
00:09:44.540 --> 00:09:52.140
Anne, do you winter those small colonies indoors or are they outdoors pushed side by side
00:09:52.420 --> 00:09:56.819
Or would you consider the I word, insulation?
00:09:56.819 --> 00:09:58.740
I thought you meant ibuprofen.
00:09:58.740 --> 00:10:03.060
No, you said we beaten that to death, but we have talked about insulation a lot.
00:10:03.060 --> 00:10:03.620
Yeah, yeah.
00:10:03.620 --> 00:10:06.019
I always consider insulation and it's a
00:10:06.160 --> 00:10:10.080
It's one of those things that's taking away a stress of the bees.
00:10:10.080 --> 00:10:12.480
Top insulation for sure.
00:10:12.480 --> 00:10:16.000
You know, people tend to go for that rigid foam board.
00:10:16.020 --> 00:10:26.420
they buy from a bee supply or from Home Depot and it seems like they buy it, that's the thickness of it, so they think of that as one and done.
00:10:26.420 --> 00:10:30.660
But I say, you know, put two thicknesses of that if you want.
00:10:30.540 --> 00:10:37.420
That's um I think it's R five, but the top is the most important part for insulation.
00:10:37.420 --> 00:10:45.180
I would use it three hundred and sixty five days a year too, but it's sort of annoying to have it in the bee yard when you take the cover off and it blows away.
00:10:44.759 --> 00:10:51.639
Well I'm really glad you said that and we weren't this is not a discussion of insulation, but I've wondered my house is insulated year round.
00:10:51.639 --> 00:10:52.680
Yeah, year round.
00:10:52.680 --> 00:10:55.240
Why wouldn't I have my beehives insulated year round?
00:10:55.240 --> 00:10:57.560
But now I'm officially off the subject
00:10:57.080 --> 00:10:58.840
We've gone off on a tangent.
00:10:58.840 --> 00:11:05.640
Yeah, but uh in the past, you know, I wondered best hottest blazes out there, they're having to keep it cooler inside.
00:11:05.640 --> 00:11:07.800
Wouldn't it help to be insulated?
00:11:07.720 --> 00:11:09.160
But I'm off the subject.
00:11:09.160 --> 00:11:11.320
Let's get back to the small hive thing.
00:11:11.320 --> 00:11:15.960
So you could consider insulating them if it came to it, but you don't winter and
00:11:16.339 --> 00:11:17.940
indoors, do you an upstate deal?
00:11:18.019 --> 00:11:21.060
No, that's a thing I would not consider doing.
00:11:21.060 --> 00:11:25.540
The insulation, definitely, I recommend doing it, but
00:11:26.100 --> 00:11:33.700
Wintering indoors, it's a easy phrase to just say, but for people in Canada, you know, or
00:11:34.520 --> 00:11:43.960
who knows Russia who winter indoors, it's a whole control the humidity, absolute darkness, or maybe red lights.
00:11:43.839 --> 00:11:47.279
For the humans who have to do things in there during the winter.
00:11:47.279 --> 00:11:51.600
It's not just pop it in your garage and say it's
00:11:51.660 --> 00:11:52.780
It's a big thing.
00:11:52.780 --> 00:11:54.940
You need air circulation.
00:11:54.940 --> 00:11:59.340
So no, I never really consider wintering indoors to be a thing.
00:11:59.500 --> 00:12:01.580
I think they have to have like a constant
00:12:12.959 --> 00:12:14.240
fifty that they had to stay there.
00:12:16.399 --> 00:12:21.920
And anything below that, they were too cold, and anything above that they become active.
00:12:21.660 --> 00:12:30.940
So it's not their thing to be indoors, but I tried it one time years ago and ironically we had hundreds of nuc boxes, two or three, four hundred of them
00:12:30.900 --> 00:12:33.700
And they were all flatboard covers with in cleats.
00:12:33.700 --> 00:12:35.060
They had no sides on them.
00:12:35.060 --> 00:12:38.980
They had no side cleats on the top, so we could push them side by side.
00:12:38.980 --> 00:12:40.980
Yeah, migratory covers.
00:12:40.940 --> 00:12:53.900
And I did bring those inside and out of I don't know, forty nucs or so, we might have gotten fifteen that survived, but basically it was death and destruction inside there and they were just
00:12:54.120 --> 00:12:55.720
Dead bees everywhere.
00:12:55.720 --> 00:12:57.080
We didn't confine them.
00:12:57.080 --> 00:12:59.240
And then the mice came for the dead bees.
00:12:59.240 --> 00:13:01.320
This was just absolute chaos.
00:13:01.320 --> 00:13:03.320
Well you could call it a test
00:13:03.660 --> 00:13:06.140
No, yeah, it was a test, all right.
00:13:06.140 --> 00:13:09.500
It was a test of how to efficiently kill bees, apparently.
00:13:09.500 --> 00:13:16.060
No, I thought if you brought 'em indoors, you know, they'd be happy and they'd sit quietly by the fire and watch old T V reruns and wait
00:13:28.240 --> 00:13:30.160
makes them get all frantic.
00:13:30.160 --> 00:13:38.240
Yeah, I think in these barns that people in Canada store them in their doors are open and uh it's just
00:13:38.520 --> 00:13:47.480
dark, windowless, and you they have the machines running to keep the air proper and the air conditioning or heaters running.
00:13:47.480 --> 00:13:47.800
So
00:13:48.240 --> 00:13:54.320
The little colonies for us, I think it would be more like uh think of all the things they need.
00:13:54.320 --> 00:13:57.840
They need some food, they need some warmth.
00:13:57.740 --> 00:13:59.500
They need to be healthy.
00:13:59.500 --> 00:14:07.900
I think the smallest one that would probably survive would be three deep frames of bees covered with bees
00:14:08.140 --> 00:14:13.340
But n there's also these uh you could put them in a deep box that has divider.
00:14:13.340 --> 00:14:16.460
You know, there's double of that style, there's even triple.
00:14:16.460 --> 00:14:17.420
It's like a
00:14:17.540 --> 00:14:24.580
three chambers with two dividers and those would keep each other warm if there were only three frames of bees each.
00:14:24.580 --> 00:14:30.740
But there's a lot of ways of getting the bees to share their heat but not get together
00:14:31.300 --> 00:14:34.100
But then there's also getting them together, uniting them.
00:14:34.100 --> 00:14:35.380
Like you said earlier.
00:14:35.380 --> 00:14:36.500
Should I combine them?
00:14:36.500 --> 00:14:37.700
Should I unite them?
00:14:37.700 --> 00:14:39.780
Sometimes just unite them.
00:14:39.780 --> 00:14:40.180
Yep.
00:14:40.180 --> 00:14:41.620
You lose a queen, but
00:14:41.959 --> 00:14:42.440
Yeah.
00:14:42.440 --> 00:14:49.800
It's hard to find a queen in a large hive at the end of summer, but it's probably pretty easy to find the queen in the small hive.
00:14:49.800 --> 00:14:52.440
But which one do you want to live?
00:14:52.440 --> 00:14:54.920
I don't think that you can always be so
00:14:55.440 --> 00:15:01.760
Picky if you're just trying to save a population of bees, you know, what is it?
00:15:01.760 --> 00:15:06.000
A thousand, two thousand bees you're trying to save, maybe six thousand.
00:15:06.000 --> 00:15:07.520
You're saving the comb
00:15:08.240 --> 00:15:10.160
Maybe saving the queen.
00:15:10.160 --> 00:15:13.280
You can make a split in the spring and you're back to two.
00:15:13.680 --> 00:15:15.200
Just get another queen.
00:15:15.200 --> 00:15:19.040
Or wait until swarm season and watch those uh swarm cells.
00:15:19.040 --> 00:15:19.839
Free queen.
00:15:20.160 --> 00:15:26.399
Well this is just you me and a listener talking here, but I don't understand the population dynamics here.
00:15:26.399 --> 00:15:30.399
If we go into to with a small number of bees, what would it be?
00:15:31.200 --> 00:15:33.200
Eight, ten thousand bees?
00:15:33.200 --> 00:15:40.720
Like ten thousand is about the size of a package, so that might be f three or four frames covered with bees.
00:15:40.560 --> 00:15:42.400
Yeah, let's say ten thousand.
00:15:42.400 --> 00:15:44.320
So there's gonna be a winter die off.
00:15:44.320 --> 00:15:50.720
It's going to be a really small colony in the spring because it's going to have winter die off all winter.
00:15:50.720 --> 00:15:54.640
So I guess I would have to realize that if you go into
00:15:55.320 --> 00:15:57.320
to winter with a small colony.
00:15:57.320 --> 00:16:07.720
Next spring you're going to have an even smaller colony, but at least it'll be alive and have a small patch of brood where they're trying to recover and they have good queen
00:16:08.220 --> 00:16:11.020
They can have really recovery dynamics.
00:16:11.020 --> 00:16:15.100
So managing small colonies is not the same as managing large colonies.
00:16:22.040 --> 00:16:31.480
even without any bees clinging on it from a hive that's bigger and can afford to give up that frame of capped brood, you've just given the little one
00:16:32.300 --> 00:16:35.020
7,000 worker bees.
00:16:35.020 --> 00:16:42.940
Probably, you know, when it emerges, that might double the size or more than double the size of the recipient.
00:16:43.160 --> 00:16:51.079
Just picture it, all of them kind of on a little timer, ready to chew their way out, and you've got seven thousand more bees.
00:16:51.640 --> 00:16:58.520
But on the other hand, somebody defending the donor colony would say, well, you took 7,000 bees away from them.
00:16:58.520 --> 00:17:02.680
They did everything right, and their reward was to make a donation.
00:17:02.640 --> 00:17:04.240
to their needy brother colony.
00:17:04.480 --> 00:17:12.960
Maybe in a way it was a swarm prevention effort because that big colony was, you know, on a path towards overpopulating and swarming.
00:17:13.200 --> 00:17:14.240
You're right.
00:17:13.860 --> 00:17:15.139
Yep, that's exactly right.
00:17:15.380 --> 00:17:16.339
It's a balance.
00:17:16.339 --> 00:17:24.100
And there's one thing you haven't mentioned that I tried about a hundred years ago when I was a young man and would try such a thing.
00:17:23.939 --> 00:17:36.179
We made four single deep splits, eight frame, and we hauled, uh, must have been 200 all the way to North Florida and set them off on a farm field down there in North Florida.
00:17:36.320 --> 00:17:38.480
They were had a good amount of honey.
00:17:38.480 --> 00:17:40.320
I was in that area at Christmas.
00:17:40.320 --> 00:17:42.960
I checked them as best I could.
00:17:42.960 --> 00:17:45.120
I didn't have any honey to feed.
00:17:45.120 --> 00:17:47.120
But most of them were all right.
00:17:47.120 --> 00:17:49.680
And then we went back the next spring
00:17:49.960 --> 00:17:52.840
And I had early queens and we split those.
00:17:52.840 --> 00:17:55.240
They had wintered and survived okay.
00:17:55.240 --> 00:18:01.400
And then we brought back a crazy number of beehives back to Ohio that for the most part prospered
00:18:01.440 --> 00:18:06.799
Except it cost about a million dollars to do it, not to count all the time that went into it.
00:18:06.799 --> 00:18:11.919
So if you looked at the financial logistics of it was terrible, but it worked okay.
00:18:11.919 --> 00:18:16.159
So you were making splits in the spring?
00:18:15.760 --> 00:18:17.120
Now in the fall?
00:18:17.120 --> 00:18:17.840
Right.
00:18:17.840 --> 00:18:19.919
We made splits in the fall.
00:18:19.919 --> 00:18:21.280
They were big splits.
00:18:21.280 --> 00:18:22.880
And hauled them to Florida.
00:18:22.880 --> 00:18:30.559
And then they w they wintered and then I bought early Queens, even farther south in Florida, if you could do that then.
00:18:29.500 --> 00:18:36.140
And then those colonies had built up reasonably well by the time I went down in preparation for the Ohio spring.
00:18:36.140 --> 00:18:38.780
They had ten or twelve weeks to build up.
00:18:38.780 --> 00:18:41.740
So then we made like splits out of those
00:18:42.019 --> 00:18:43.059
And came back.
00:18:43.059 --> 00:18:51.620
So that's one extraordinarily labor-intensive, almost pricey way to get a lot of bees from a small number of bees.
00:18:51.380 --> 00:18:54.180
That's way at one end of the spectrum.
00:18:54.180 --> 00:18:55.540
And that's just popping up.
00:18:55.620 --> 00:18:57.220
That's the other end of the spectrum.
00:18:57.220 --> 00:18:57.700
Yeah.
00:18:57.700 --> 00:19:02.340
Let's uh let's picture that bell curve and Jim Tew way at that end.
00:19:02.420 --> 00:19:02.900
Right.
00:19:02.900 --> 00:19:03.860
Yep.
00:19:03.640 --> 00:19:05.800
Me teaching economics and beekeeping.
00:19:05.800 --> 00:19:14.120
We're probably all mostly more in the middle where we would boost, um, equalize, put an insulation on and
00:19:14.720 --> 00:19:16.560
Give 'em a winter mite treatment.
00:19:16.800 --> 00:19:26.400
You've just given a good summary there about the only thing you can do is you know to I hate an old adage that's just worn out, but it's not rocket science.
00:19:26.240 --> 00:19:28.160
You just do basically what you can do.
00:19:28.160 --> 00:19:35.840
And then the last thing neither of us have mentioned, when the time comes, you go clean up the dead outs, save the equipment, and start all over again.
00:19:35.840 --> 00:19:37.680
And there will be dead outs
00:19:37.760 --> 00:19:43.600
you know, always be checking that equipment, the comb especially is valuable stuff.
00:19:43.600 --> 00:19:49.520
Just yesterday it turned out a hive had swarmed apparently and then
00:19:50.860 --> 00:20:02.380
Maybe it had swarmed repeatedly, but the population went down, it was starting to get robbed, and we just discovered it, and it was just on the beginning of having small hive beetles.
00:20:02.380 --> 00:20:02.700
So
00:20:03.019 --> 00:20:10.700
us being alert, we just saved a whole lot of comb by being able to grab that comb and put it in the freezer.
00:20:10.700 --> 00:20:16.779
You know, so be checking, be alert to all the possibilities of things going wrong
00:20:16.740 --> 00:20:22.340
We found that one just by looking at entrances as we roamed around the yard before mowing it.
00:20:22.340 --> 00:20:26.340
So be alert, save that comb, at least for
00:20:26.640 --> 00:20:27.840
four or five years.
00:20:27.840 --> 00:20:32.080
It's not just saving the bees, it's it's like saving your stuff.
00:20:32.080 --> 00:20:33.280
Cutting your losses.
00:20:33.440 --> 00:20:34.320
Cutting your losses.
00:20:34.640 --> 00:20:36.080
Clean out those dead outs.
00:20:36.080 --> 00:20:38.800
Get them clean in the spring.
00:20:38.660 --> 00:20:40.420
so they don't get moldy.
00:20:40.420 --> 00:20:53.380
People see that mould on bees in the spring, um, dead and they say, Oh, moisture and mould killed my bees It's like, Well, d when you see a dead deer in a ditch, do you say that ditch killed the deer?
00:20:53.200 --> 00:20:56.800
But um yeah I didn't actually talk about dead outs.
00:20:56.800 --> 00:20:58.960
You brought up dead outs, Jim.
00:20:58.960 --> 00:21:00.560
That's a good way to end.
00:21:00.560 --> 00:21:02.080
That's a good way to end.
00:21:02.080 --> 00:21:02.800
Not really.
00:21:02.800 --> 00:21:06.880
You've given a good overview, Ann, so I c I can't really add anything to that.
00:21:06.880 --> 00:21:07.600
Our time is uh
00:21:08.040 --> 00:21:08.360
Up.
00:21:08.360 --> 00:21:09.320
Time's up.
00:21:09.320 --> 00:21:12.120
So as always, I enjoy talking to you.
00:21:13.400 --> 00:21:14.200
They're behind you.
00:21:14.200 --> 00:21:18.360
I appreciate him letting you use the facility while we co record there.
00:21:18.360 --> 00:21:19.160
I will.
00:21:19.160 --> 00:21:20.520
Yeah, I think we covered it.
00:21:20.520 --> 00:21:21.480
Till next time.
00:21:21.480 --> 00:21:22.120
Till next time.
00:21:22.120 --> 00:21:22.600
I hope there's
00:21:23.120 --> 00:21:24.320
next time real soon.
00:21:24.320 --> 00:21:25.040
Okay.
00:21:25.040 --> 00:21:26.880
Bye and bye-bye.
00:00:01.600 --> 00:00:14.240
Beekeepers is basically a fundamental goal of all other beekeepers and you to get the biggest hives we can, the healthiest hives, the most honey, the most pollination, the most everything.
00:00:14.460 --> 00:00:16.860
Well, the most isn't always possible.
00:00:16.860 --> 00:00:22.380
Sometimes you got the lesser producers, the smaller hives at the wrong time of the year.
00:00:22.280 --> 00:00:23.960
What are you gonna do with those?
00:00:23.960 --> 00:00:26.600
Anne Frey, I'm happy to tell you from Betterbee.
00:00:26.600 --> 00:00:27.720
Say hi, Ann.
00:00:27.720 --> 00:00:29.240
Hi, glad to be here.
00:00:29.240 --> 00:00:33.240
Ann's gonna tell us all about what to do with small hives
00:00:33.280 --> 00:00:35.280
What you said it was a conversation.
00:00:35.440 --> 00:00:38.960
Oh, it'll be yeah, it's just me telling the people what you're saying.
00:00:38.960 --> 00:00:41.120
No, what do with small hives right now?
00:00:41.120 --> 00:00:42.400
It's late summer
00:00:42.460 --> 00:00:44.219
goldenrod's just coming on.
00:00:44.219 --> 00:00:51.820
You got the last window, beekeepers, from most of us here in the upper Midwest, upstate New York.
00:00:51.820 --> 00:00:54.620
What do you want to do with this last window that we've got?
00:00:54.620 --> 00:00:56.220
I want to talk about that for a while.
00:00:56.220 --> 00:00:57.180
What do a small house?
00:00:57.780 --> 00:00:59.460
in the late summer, early fall.
00:00:59.460 --> 00:01:12.260
Beekeepers, I'm Jim Tew and I come to you here at Honey Bee Obscura once a week where today Anne Frey and I are going to try to talk about what to do with small hives in early late summer.
00:01:12.620 --> 00:01:13.820
Early fall.
00:01:13.820 --> 00:01:23.660
Welcome to Honey Bee Obscura, brought to you by Growing Planet Media, the producers of the Beekeeping Today podcast.
00:01:23.660 --> 00:01:26.940
Join Jim Tew, your guide through the complexities
00:01:27.700 --> 00:01:32.580
The beauty, the fun, and the challenges of managing honey bees.
00:01:32.580 --> 00:01:39.380
Jim hosts fun and interesting guests who take a deep dive into the intricate world of honey bees.
00:01:39.380 --> 00:01:42.260
Whether you're a seasoned beekeeper or just getting started,
00:01:42.860 --> 00:01:48.140
Get ready for some plain talk that'll delve into all things honey bees.
00:01:48.140 --> 00:01:48.940
Ann?
00:01:48.940 --> 00:01:49.820
Hi Jim.
00:01:49.820 --> 00:01:50.940
How's it going?
00:01:50.940 --> 00:01:52.620
It's going fine.
00:01:52.720 --> 00:01:58.000
We've got like you said goldenrod but I think ours is more like close to the peak.
00:01:58.000 --> 00:01:59.920
Yeah, mine's just starting.
00:01:59.920 --> 00:02:07.360
I'm gonna tell this the whole crowd the story and the last one of the last times Ann and I talked, she had a horrible cold.
00:02:06.760 --> 00:02:09.160
And she just coughed, cough, coughed.
00:02:09.160 --> 00:02:11.160
You seem a lot better today, Ann.
00:02:11.160 --> 00:02:13.800
Everything seems like it's going along better for you.
00:02:13.800 --> 00:02:15.080
Fingers crossed
00:02:15.240 --> 00:02:16.600
Fingers crossed.
00:02:16.600 --> 00:02:19.720
And do you have any small colonies you have to deal with now?
00:02:19.720 --> 00:02:24.200
As this is where you can be very prideful and say no, you keep your colonies strong.
00:02:24.200 --> 00:02:28.360
You never have small colonies, but if you had small colonies now
00:02:28.640 --> 00:02:30.720
What direction would you take?
00:02:30.720 --> 00:02:38.640
In a strange way, probably two-thirds to three quarters of what we have is small colonies, 'cause that's the nucs.
00:02:38.300 --> 00:02:44.940
You know, those are seven to eight, possibly twelve frames, deep frames, but more likely they're eight.
00:02:44.940 --> 00:02:48.380
So those are small, but small on purpose.
00:02:48.440 --> 00:02:57.080
Are you talking about colonies that are having troubles or they had like an August swarm and therefore the remainder is small?
00:02:57.080 --> 00:02:59.080
Feel like that's what we're talking about.
00:02:59.160 --> 00:03:00.519
All those are options.
00:03:00.519 --> 00:03:03.160
Basically for whatever reason.
00:03:03.020 --> 00:03:07.099
I have a small hive right now, the last of August.
00:03:07.099 --> 00:03:11.099
I'm coming up on my final fall flow, which is never very good.
00:03:11.099 --> 00:03:13.980
It's never just really, oh my heavens, get back.
00:03:13.980 --> 00:03:16.459
This flow is really going strong
00:03:16.879 --> 00:03:22.239
So I'm probably going to have to combine do something, and that's what I'd like for us to talk about.
00:03:22.239 --> 00:03:25.680
What do you do with a small hive other than just let it die in the winter?
00:03:25.680 --> 00:03:26.799
Oh yeah, yeah.
00:03:26.799 --> 00:03:29.439
I wouldn't just do that because uh
00:03:29.940 --> 00:03:31.300
There's always a chance.
00:03:31.300 --> 00:03:34.500
We got the tiniest little colonies through the winter.
00:03:34.500 --> 00:03:38.099
One uh October we found a colony of
00:03:38.440 --> 00:03:43.080
just combs, uh some bees and a homeowner said, What's this up here?
00:03:43.160 --> 00:03:48.519
And we went and fetched it and I didn't have a lot of hope, but we put it
00:03:48.720 --> 00:03:54.079
above a large colony with a double screenboard as its floor.
00:03:54.079 --> 00:03:57.599
So we took off the inner cover and we put on a double screenboard.
00:03:57.400 --> 00:04:01.239
And then we put an inner cover, an outer cover on top of the little one.
00:04:01.239 --> 00:04:07.640
And they got all that warmth from the one below, maybe, you know, and humidity from the one below.
00:04:07.380 --> 00:04:08.740
They live through the winter.
00:04:08.740 --> 00:04:13.940
We gave them some honey on the sides as a donation from other hives.
00:04:13.940 --> 00:04:18.980
Uh we did not give them any extra brood frames or bees.
00:04:18.980 --> 00:04:19.700
They just
00:04:20.199 --> 00:04:24.440
They just made it and they turned into a full size hive the next summer.
00:04:24.440 --> 00:04:25.960
So that's one way.
00:04:25.960 --> 00:04:27.080
We didn't unite.
00:04:27.080 --> 00:04:28.199
We just sort of
00:04:28.620 --> 00:04:33.340
gave them a few things from the one below, the warmth and the honey.
00:04:33.340 --> 00:04:35.180
So there's an idea.
00:04:35.259 --> 00:04:38.620
Well the one thing you just described to me was patience.
00:04:38.940 --> 00:04:46.300
You had to wait almost a full season, a full year for that to turn into a meaningful beehive
00:04:46.360 --> 00:04:47.640
And there's no way to rush it.
00:04:47.960 --> 00:04:56.360
We waited from October to April to see how it did and then we moved it into bigger equipment and it got big on its own during that summer.
00:04:56.360 --> 00:04:59.480
So I'd argue that it was more like six months.
00:04:59.120 --> 00:05:00.639
Okay, well that's not bad.
00:05:00.639 --> 00:05:02.479
You still had patience, though.
00:05:02.479 --> 00:05:03.919
I'm pretty patient.
00:05:03.919 --> 00:05:04.960
What do you do now?
00:05:04.960 --> 00:05:07.120
Do you want to set up a hypothetical situation?
00:05:07.120 --> 00:05:10.560
I'm a beekeeper with ten hives and three are not winterable
00:05:10.760 --> 00:05:14.040
There are eight frames, ten frames at the most.
00:05:14.040 --> 00:05:15.080
Do I combine them?
00:05:15.080 --> 00:05:18.520
Do I double screen them and see if they can help each other or
00:05:18.960 --> 00:05:24.720
As a professional beekeeper, what would you do with three out of ten that were not going to make it on their own?
00:05:24.720 --> 00:05:26.639
Okay, so three out of those ten
00:05:27.039 --> 00:05:30.639
And each one is like eight frames of covered in bees?
00:05:30.720 --> 00:05:37.120
We'll just say eight frames, brood in bees, and they have got a recent queen, maybe it's a late swarm, whatever you want it to be.
00:05:37.120 --> 00:05:38.879
Yeah, I would make sure
00:05:39.220 --> 00:05:41.060
They were healthy.
00:05:41.060 --> 00:05:43.780
They're their mites were dead.
00:05:43.780 --> 00:05:48.820
Make sure that they have frames full of honey and some pollen.
00:05:48.820 --> 00:05:52.340
You might have to find some from bigger hives to donate to them
00:05:52.440 --> 00:05:58.520
That's something I didn't know way, way back when I began was that you could just give donations.
00:05:58.520 --> 00:06:02.840
I just I was like, Well, will this hive collect enough for itself?
00:06:02.840 --> 00:06:05.720
That was the only thing I thought of as a way for
00:06:05.840 --> 00:06:11.440
bees to get supplies or me feeding them sugar syrup and that's valid too.
00:06:11.440 --> 00:06:16.160
You can make donations from donors, you know, if you have more than one hive.
00:06:16.520 --> 00:06:27.080
At the very least, I would shove them tightly together, and that might be awkward with telescoping outer covers, but you know, some kind of creativity with their covers.
00:06:27.080 --> 00:06:27.720
And then
00:06:28.060 --> 00:06:34.139
They don't have cooled air on all four sides or all six sides, bottom and top two.
00:06:34.139 --> 00:06:41.180
Alternatively, you could stack them, like the double screen idea that I said and that you mentioned again
00:06:41.139 --> 00:06:47.540
then the top one has its entrance for one of those little spinny things on the double screen board.
00:06:47.540 --> 00:06:53.699
I would definitely insulate the top or tops if they're side by side and
00:06:54.139 --> 00:07:00.940
You know, just give them every advantage, you know, take away every stress they could have if they're small colonies.
00:07:00.940 --> 00:07:02.540
What do you do with mites in these?
00:07:02.540 --> 00:07:05.180
When's the last mite check you would do?
00:07:05.039 --> 00:07:07.440
on a small colony in late August.
00:07:07.520 --> 00:07:08.560
Mite check.
00:07:08.560 --> 00:07:13.440
Well they're probably getting their treatment in late August or in the first week of September.
00:07:13.440 --> 00:07:17.919
I would advise people to do a mite check a few weeks after that.
00:07:17.720 --> 00:07:21.479
treatment is done, that would be the last mite check.
00:07:21.479 --> 00:07:24.759
But the small colonies, the big ones, we treat them all the same.
00:07:24.759 --> 00:07:28.199
Um every one of them gets a wintertime mite treatment too
00:07:28.139 --> 00:07:29.660
like around Christmas.
00:07:29.660 --> 00:07:33.740
What else are you gonna do on that week after Christmas when you're bored?
00:07:33.740 --> 00:07:37.500
So go take a walk in the winter and treat all your hives.
00:07:37.500 --> 00:07:38.220
So uh
00:07:38.920 --> 00:07:47.720
Yeah, I mean just the overarching idea of taking away every possible stress that any small or big one could have
00:07:47.940 --> 00:07:51.860
You know, like with little house plants or cuttings that you've made.
00:07:51.860 --> 00:07:54.340
I always make this comparison when I give a talk.
00:07:54.340 --> 00:07:58.580
Those things, they need more babying, the small ones.
00:07:58.580 --> 00:07:59.460
You know, they're
00:07:59.760 --> 00:08:01.840
Their dirt gets dry faster.
00:08:02.080 --> 00:08:04.880
They can't deal with so much bright sun, you know.
00:08:04.880 --> 00:08:06.880
So same thing with little colonies.
00:08:06.880 --> 00:08:08.400
They need a little more babying.
00:08:08.639 --> 00:08:11.600
a little more frequent checks, that kind of thing.
00:08:11.600 --> 00:08:14.240
Yeah, you're describing a kitten almost.
00:08:14.240 --> 00:08:15.680
Well, sort of.
00:08:15.680 --> 00:08:16.400
Yeah.
00:08:16.400 --> 00:08:17.440
Or, you know
00:08:17.660 --> 00:08:25.100
You have a teenager, you know it's sort of self sufficient, but when it's a toddler you take care of it more attentively.
00:08:25.100 --> 00:08:27.420
Yep, uh that's exactly right.
00:08:27.080 --> 00:08:35.640
And let's take a break and hear from our sponsor, and then we'll come back and talk about a subject that you said we have beaten to death.
00:08:35.640 --> 00:08:41.960
For more than 45 years, Betterbee has proudly supported beekeepers by offering high quality.
00:08:42.240 --> 00:08:50.720
Quality, innovative products, providing outstanding customer service, many of our staff are beekeepers themselves, and
00:08:51.040 --> 00:08:54.640
Sharing Education to Help Beekeepers Succeed.
00:08:54.640 --> 00:09:01.360
Based in Greenwich, New York, Betterbee serves beekeepers all across the United States.
00:09:01.360 --> 00:09:03.839
Whether you're just getting started
00:09:03.940 --> 00:09:12.180
or a seasoned pro, Betterbee has the products and experience to help you and your bees succeed.
00:09:12.140 --> 00:09:13.900
Visit betterbee.
00:09:13.900 --> 00:09:20.540
com or call 1-800-632-3379.
00:09:20.540 --> 00:09:23.900
Betterbee, your partners in Better Beekeeping
00:09:27.880 --> 00:09:31.560
We'd like to thank Vita Bee Health for supporting this podcast.
00:09:31.560 --> 00:09:35.880
Vita provides proven tools for controlling Varroa, Apistan.
00:09:35.800 --> 00:09:44.600
from Apiguard to the new Varroxsan extended release oxalic acid strips, helping beekeepers keep stronger, healthier colonies
00:09:44.540 --> 00:09:52.140
Anne, do you winter those small colonies indoors or are they outdoors pushed side by side
00:09:52.420 --> 00:09:56.819
Or would you consider the I word, insulation?
00:09:56.819 --> 00:09:58.740
I thought you meant ibuprofen.
00:09:58.740 --> 00:10:03.060
No, you said we beaten that to death, but we have talked about insulation a lot.
00:10:03.060 --> 00:10:03.620
Yeah, yeah.
00:10:03.620 --> 00:10:06.019
I always consider insulation and it's a
00:10:06.160 --> 00:10:10.080
It's one of those things that's taking away a stress of the bees.
00:10:10.080 --> 00:10:12.480
Top insulation for sure.
00:10:12.480 --> 00:10:16.000
You know, people tend to go for that rigid foam board.
00:10:16.020 --> 00:10:26.420
they buy from a bee supply or from Home Depot and it seems like they buy it, that's the thickness of it, so they think of that as one and done.
00:10:26.420 --> 00:10:30.660
But I say, you know, put two thicknesses of that if you want.
00:10:30.540 --> 00:10:37.420
That's um I think it's R five, but the top is the most important part for insulation.
00:10:37.420 --> 00:10:45.180
I would use it three hundred and sixty five days a year too, but it's sort of annoying to have it in the bee yard when you take the cover off and it blows away.
00:10:44.759 --> 00:10:51.639
Well I'm really glad you said that and we weren't this is not a discussion of insulation, but I've wondered my house is insulated year round.
00:10:51.639 --> 00:10:52.680
Yeah, year round.
00:10:52.680 --> 00:10:55.240
Why wouldn't I have my beehives insulated year round?
00:10:55.240 --> 00:10:57.560
But now I'm officially off the subject
00:10:57.080 --> 00:10:58.840
We've gone off on a tangent.
00:10:58.840 --> 00:11:05.640
Yeah, but uh in the past, you know, I wondered best hottest blazes out there, they're having to keep it cooler inside.
00:11:05.640 --> 00:11:07.800
Wouldn't it help to be insulated?
00:11:07.720 --> 00:11:09.160
But I'm off the subject.
00:11:09.160 --> 00:11:11.320
Let's get back to the small hive thing.
00:11:11.320 --> 00:11:15.960
So you could consider insulating them if it came to it, but you don't winter and
00:11:16.339 --> 00:11:17.940
indoors, do you an upstate deal?
00:11:18.019 --> 00:11:21.060
No, that's a thing I would not consider doing.
00:11:21.060 --> 00:11:25.540
The insulation, definitely, I recommend doing it, but
00:11:26.100 --> 00:11:33.700
Wintering indoors, it's a easy phrase to just say, but for people in Canada, you know, or
00:11:34.520 --> 00:11:43.960
who knows Russia who winter indoors, it's a whole control the humidity, absolute darkness, or maybe red lights.
00:11:43.839 --> 00:11:47.279
For the humans who have to do things in there during the winter.
00:11:47.279 --> 00:11:51.600
It's not just pop it in your garage and say it's
00:11:51.660 --> 00:11:52.780
It's a big thing.
00:11:52.780 --> 00:11:54.940
You need air circulation.
00:11:54.940 --> 00:11:59.340
So no, I never really consider wintering indoors to be a thing.
00:11:59.500 --> 00:12:01.580
I think they have to have like a constant
00:12:12.959 --> 00:12:14.240
fifty that they had to stay there.
00:12:16.399 --> 00:12:21.920
And anything below that, they were too cold, and anything above that they become active.
00:12:21.660 --> 00:12:30.940
So it's not their thing to be indoors, but I tried it one time years ago and ironically we had hundreds of nuc boxes, two or three, four hundred of them
00:12:30.900 --> 00:12:33.700
And they were all flatboard covers with in cleats.
00:12:33.700 --> 00:12:35.060
They had no sides on them.
00:12:35.060 --> 00:12:38.980
They had no side cleats on the top, so we could push them side by side.
00:12:38.980 --> 00:12:40.980
Yeah, migratory covers.
00:12:40.940 --> 00:12:53.900
And I did bring those inside and out of I don't know, forty nucs or so, we might have gotten fifteen that survived, but basically it was death and destruction inside there and they were just
00:12:54.120 --> 00:12:55.720
Dead bees everywhere.
00:12:55.720 --> 00:12:57.080
We didn't confine them.
00:12:57.080 --> 00:12:59.240
And then the mice came for the dead bees.
00:12:59.240 --> 00:13:01.320
This was just absolute chaos.
00:13:01.320 --> 00:13:03.320
Well you could call it a test
00:13:03.660 --> 00:13:06.140
No, yeah, it was a test, all right.
00:13:06.140 --> 00:13:09.500
It was a test of how to efficiently kill bees, apparently.
00:13:09.500 --> 00:13:16.060
No, I thought if you brought 'em indoors, you know, they'd be happy and they'd sit quietly by the fire and watch old T V reruns and wait
00:13:28.240 --> 00:13:30.160
makes them get all frantic.
00:13:30.160 --> 00:13:38.240
Yeah, I think in these barns that people in Canada store them in their doors are open and uh it's just
00:13:38.520 --> 00:13:47.480
dark, windowless, and you they have the machines running to keep the air proper and the air conditioning or heaters running.
00:13:47.480 --> 00:13:47.800
So
00:13:48.240 --> 00:13:54.320
The little colonies for us, I think it would be more like uh think of all the things they need.
00:13:54.320 --> 00:13:57.840
They need some food, they need some warmth.
00:13:57.740 --> 00:13:59.500
They need to be healthy.
00:13:59.500 --> 00:14:07.900
I think the smallest one that would probably survive would be three deep frames of bees covered with bees
00:14:08.140 --> 00:14:13.340
But n there's also these uh you could put them in a deep box that has divider.
00:14:13.340 --> 00:14:16.460
You know, there's double of that style, there's even triple.
00:14:16.460 --> 00:14:17.420
It's like a
00:14:17.540 --> 00:14:24.580
three chambers with two dividers and those would keep each other warm if there were only three frames of bees each.
00:14:24.580 --> 00:14:30.740
But there's a lot of ways of getting the bees to share their heat but not get together
00:14:31.300 --> 00:14:34.100
But then there's also getting them together, uniting them.
00:14:34.100 --> 00:14:35.380
Like you said earlier.
00:14:35.380 --> 00:14:36.500
Should I combine them?
00:14:36.500 --> 00:14:37.700
Should I unite them?
00:14:37.700 --> 00:14:39.780
Sometimes just unite them.
00:14:39.780 --> 00:14:40.180
Yep.
00:14:40.180 --> 00:14:41.620
You lose a queen, but
00:14:41.959 --> 00:14:42.440
Yeah.
00:14:42.440 --> 00:14:49.800
It's hard to find a queen in a large hive at the end of summer, but it's probably pretty easy to find the queen in the small hive.
00:14:49.800 --> 00:14:52.440
But which one do you want to live?
00:14:52.440 --> 00:14:54.920
I don't think that you can always be so
00:14:55.440 --> 00:15:01.760
Picky if you're just trying to save a population of bees, you know, what is it?
00:15:01.760 --> 00:15:06.000
A thousand, two thousand bees you're trying to save, maybe six thousand.
00:15:06.000 --> 00:15:07.520
You're saving the comb
00:15:08.240 --> 00:15:10.160
Maybe saving the queen.
00:15:10.160 --> 00:15:13.280
You can make a split in the spring and you're back to two.
00:15:13.680 --> 00:15:15.200
Just get another queen.
00:15:15.200 --> 00:15:19.040
Or wait until swarm season and watch those uh swarm cells.
00:15:19.040 --> 00:15:19.839
Free queen.
00:15:20.160 --> 00:15:26.399
Well this is just you me and a listener talking here, but I don't understand the population dynamics here.
00:15:26.399 --> 00:15:30.399
If we go into to with a small number of bees, what would it be?
00:15:31.200 --> 00:15:33.200
Eight, ten thousand bees?
00:15:33.200 --> 00:15:40.720
Like ten thousand is about the size of a package, so that might be f three or four frames covered with bees.
00:15:40.560 --> 00:15:42.400
Yeah, let's say ten thousand.
00:15:42.400 --> 00:15:44.320
So there's gonna be a winter die off.
00:15:44.320 --> 00:15:50.720
It's going to be a really small colony in the spring because it's going to have winter die off all winter.
00:15:50.720 --> 00:15:54.640
So I guess I would have to realize that if you go into
00:15:55.320 --> 00:15:57.320
to winter with a small colony.
00:15:57.320 --> 00:16:07.720
Next spring you're going to have an even smaller colony, but at least it'll be alive and have a small patch of brood where they're trying to recover and they have good queen
00:16:08.220 --> 00:16:11.020
They can have really recovery dynamics.
00:16:11.020 --> 00:16:15.100
So managing small colonies is not the same as managing large colonies.
00:16:22.040 --> 00:16:31.480
even without any bees clinging on it from a hive that's bigger and can afford to give up that frame of capped brood, you've just given the little one
00:16:32.300 --> 00:16:35.020
7,000 worker bees.
00:16:35.020 --> 00:16:42.940
Probably, you know, when it emerges, that might double the size or more than double the size of the recipient.
00:16:43.160 --> 00:16:51.079
Just picture it, all of them kind of on a little timer, ready to chew their way out, and you've got seven thousand more bees.
00:16:51.640 --> 00:16:58.520
But on the other hand, somebody defending the donor colony would say, well, you took 7,000 bees away from them.
00:16:58.520 --> 00:17:02.680
They did everything right, and their reward was to make a donation.
00:17:02.640 --> 00:17:04.240
to their needy brother colony.
00:17:04.480 --> 00:17:12.960
Maybe in a way it was a swarm prevention effort because that big colony was, you know, on a path towards overpopulating and swarming.
00:17:13.200 --> 00:17:14.240
You're right.
00:17:13.860 --> 00:17:15.139
Yep, that's exactly right.
00:17:15.380 --> 00:17:16.339
It's a balance.
00:17:16.339 --> 00:17:24.100
And there's one thing you haven't mentioned that I tried about a hundred years ago when I was a young man and would try such a thing.
00:17:23.939 --> 00:17:36.179
We made four single deep splits, eight frame, and we hauled, uh, must have been 200 all the way to North Florida and set them off on a farm field down there in North Florida.
00:17:36.320 --> 00:17:38.480
They were had a good amount of honey.
00:17:38.480 --> 00:17:40.320
I was in that area at Christmas.
00:17:40.320 --> 00:17:42.960
I checked them as best I could.
00:17:42.960 --> 00:17:45.120
I didn't have any honey to feed.
00:17:45.120 --> 00:17:47.120
But most of them were all right.
00:17:47.120 --> 00:17:49.680
And then we went back the next spring
00:17:49.960 --> 00:17:52.840
And I had early queens and we split those.
00:17:52.840 --> 00:17:55.240
They had wintered and survived okay.
00:17:55.240 --> 00:18:01.400
And then we brought back a crazy number of beehives back to Ohio that for the most part prospered
00:18:01.440 --> 00:18:06.799
Except it cost about a million dollars to do it, not to count all the time that went into it.
00:18:06.799 --> 00:18:11.919
So if you looked at the financial logistics of it was terrible, but it worked okay.
00:18:11.919 --> 00:18:16.159
So you were making splits in the spring?
00:18:15.760 --> 00:18:17.120
Now in the fall?
00:18:17.120 --> 00:18:17.840
Right.
00:18:17.840 --> 00:18:19.919
We made splits in the fall.
00:18:19.919 --> 00:18:21.280
They were big splits.
00:18:21.280 --> 00:18:22.880
And hauled them to Florida.
00:18:22.880 --> 00:18:30.559
And then they w they wintered and then I bought early Queens, even farther south in Florida, if you could do that then.
00:18:29.500 --> 00:18:36.140
And then those colonies had built up reasonably well by the time I went down in preparation for the Ohio spring.
00:18:36.140 --> 00:18:38.780
They had ten or twelve weeks to build up.
00:18:38.780 --> 00:18:41.740
So then we made like splits out of those
00:18:42.019 --> 00:18:43.059
And came back.
00:18:43.059 --> 00:18:51.620
So that's one extraordinarily labor-intensive, almost pricey way to get a lot of bees from a small number of bees.
00:18:51.380 --> 00:18:54.180
That's way at one end of the spectrum.
00:18:54.180 --> 00:18:55.540
And that's just popping up.
00:18:55.620 --> 00:18:57.220
That's the other end of the spectrum.
00:18:57.220 --> 00:18:57.700
Yeah.
00:18:57.700 --> 00:19:02.340
Let's uh let's picture that bell curve and Jim Tew way at that end.
00:19:02.420 --> 00:19:02.900
Right.
00:19:02.900 --> 00:19:03.860
Yep.
00:19:03.640 --> 00:19:05.800
Me teaching economics and beekeeping.
00:19:05.800 --> 00:19:14.120
We're probably all mostly more in the middle where we would boost, um, equalize, put an insulation on and
00:19:14.720 --> 00:19:16.560
Give 'em a winter mite treatment.
00:19:16.800 --> 00:19:26.400
You've just given a good summary there about the only thing you can do is you know to I hate an old adage that's just worn out, but it's not rocket science.
00:19:26.240 --> 00:19:28.160
You just do basically what you can do.
00:19:28.160 --> 00:19:35.840
And then the last thing neither of us have mentioned, when the time comes, you go clean up the dead outs, save the equipment, and start all over again.
00:19:35.840 --> 00:19:37.680
And there will be dead outs
00:19:37.760 --> 00:19:43.600
you know, always be checking that equipment, the comb especially is valuable stuff.
00:19:43.600 --> 00:19:49.520
Just yesterday it turned out a hive had swarmed apparently and then
00:19:50.860 --> 00:20:02.380
Maybe it had swarmed repeatedly, but the population went down, it was starting to get robbed, and we just discovered it, and it was just on the beginning of having small hive beetles.
00:20:02.380 --> 00:20:02.700
So
00:20:03.019 --> 00:20:10.700
us being alert, we just saved a whole lot of comb by being able to grab that comb and put it in the freezer.
00:20:10.700 --> 00:20:16.779
You know, so be checking, be alert to all the possibilities of things going wrong
00:20:16.740 --> 00:20:22.340
We found that one just by looking at entrances as we roamed around the yard before mowing it.
00:20:22.340 --> 00:20:26.340
So be alert, save that comb, at least for
00:20:26.640 --> 00:20:27.840
four or five years.
00:20:27.840 --> 00:20:32.080
It's not just saving the bees, it's it's like saving your stuff.
00:20:32.080 --> 00:20:33.280
Cutting your losses.
00:20:33.440 --> 00:20:34.320
Cutting your losses.
00:20:34.640 --> 00:20:36.080
Clean out those dead outs.
00:20:36.080 --> 00:20:38.800
Get them clean in the spring.
00:20:38.660 --> 00:20:40.420
so they don't get moldy.
00:20:40.420 --> 00:20:53.380
People see that mould on bees in the spring, um, dead and they say, Oh, moisture and mould killed my bees It's like, Well, d when you see a dead deer in a ditch, do you say that ditch killed the deer?
00:20:53.200 --> 00:20:56.800
But um yeah I didn't actually talk about dead outs.
00:20:56.800 --> 00:20:58.960
You brought up dead outs, Jim.
00:20:58.960 --> 00:21:00.560
That's a good way to end.
00:21:00.560 --> 00:21:02.080
That's a good way to end.
00:21:02.080 --> 00:21:02.800
Not really.
00:21:02.800 --> 00:21:06.880
You've given a good overview, Ann, so I c I can't really add anything to that.
00:21:06.880 --> 00:21:07.600
Our time is uh
00:21:08.040 --> 00:21:08.360
Up.
00:21:08.360 --> 00:21:09.320
Time's up.
00:21:09.320 --> 00:21:12.120
So as always, I enjoy talking to you.
00:21:13.400 --> 00:21:14.200
They're behind you.
00:21:14.200 --> 00:21:18.360
I appreciate him letting you use the facility while we co record there.
00:21:18.360 --> 00:21:19.160
I will.
00:21:19.160 --> 00:21:20.520
Yeah, I think we covered it.
00:21:20.520 --> 00:21:21.480
Till next time.
00:21:21.480 --> 00:21:22.120
Till next time.
00:21:22.120 --> 00:21:22.600
I hope there's
00:21:23.120 --> 00:21:24.320
next time real soon.
00:21:24.320 --> 00:21:25.040
Okay.
00:21:25.040 --> 00:21:26.880
Bye and bye-bye.
Beekeeper and Educator
Anne lives in Greenwich, NY and since 2019 has been Betterbee's Head Beekeeper, teacher, and videographer (catch her on Betterbee's YouTube channel!). She first got bees in 1989 while getting a Biology degree, and like most of us, she was a "bee-haver" for just a few years, until she became a member of her local beekeeping club (the Southern Adirondack Beekeepers Association, or SABA), where she learned a lot from members and through club activities.
Anne became invaluable to SABA's operation and led the Annual Seminar and Bee School for many years. Beekeeping associations are so valuable to us because of the speakers and events, but also because of the casual networking, support, and mentoring that comes about when people find a group near them.
She became an EAS Master Beekeeper in 2002 and is still learning to this day. In her limited spare time, she reads sci-fi and rides her bicycle.
