Late Season Swarms with Anne Frey (244)

Episode 244 – Late Season Swarms with Anne Frey

[music]

Jim Tew: Listeners, it's that time of the week again. I'm Jim. I wonder if any of you have had any late season swarms this year. Sometimes that happens, sometimes it doesn't, but whenever it happens, it's always strange, because we always talk about swarming in the spring season. You can have out of season swarms, and then all the rules don't necessarily apply. How to do, what to do? Any comments that I might have, I hope will be helpful. I got Anne with me here from Better Bee. Anne, say, "Hi".

Anne Frey: Hi, Jim. Glad to be here.

Jim: I always appreciate you talking with us. You're an interesting person with a lot of beekeeping experience.

Anne: Thanks.

Jim: Anne and I would like to talk with you about this whole concept of late season swarms to see if we can add any practicality to what is sometimes an unusual event, a swarm late in the season. I'm Jim Tew, and I come to you here about once a week here at Honey Bee Obscura where I try to talk about something to do with plain talk beekeeping.

Anne: I'm Anne Frey. I keep the bees at Better Bee in Greenwich, New York, and I'm glad to be here.

[music]

Intro: Welcome to Honey Bee Obscura brought to you by Growing Planet Media, the producers of the Beekeeping Today Podcast. Join Jim Tew, your guide through the complexities, the beauty, the fun, and the challenges of managing honeybees. Jim hosts fun and interesting guests who take a deep dive into the intricate world of honeybees. Whether you're a seasoned beekeeper, or just getting started, get ready for some plain talk that'll delve into all things honeybees.

Jim: Anne, it wasn't this year, I need to tell the truth. It wasn't this year, but last year I did pick up a late season swarm. What is your best guess on the bees' reason for producing such a late, seemingly suicidal swarm?

Anne: Suicidal swarms. You mean like a suicidal September swarm, or maybe just in August?

Jim: Well, September would be really suicidal. I don't think I've had them in September. I've had them in August.

Anne: Yes, that's still pretty late. Why do they do that? It just seems just ridiculous for them to do that when they have very little time to make comb, and gather enough honey, raise more bees to live through winter. I think it must be genetics. Also, maybe that their brood nest is getting really full of nectar, but that's a typical late summer, early fall thing to happen. I got to pull back on that, and return to the genetics idea. Maybe they came from Africa, they might still have the tropical genetic mindset of, "Let's swarm repeatedly," but it's not any good in the north, that's for sure.

Jim: I've actually had-- I didn't ever come up with an answer. I'll give you part of a hypothesis that never worked at all. I even blow it up.

Anne: All right, that sounds good.

Jim: My hypothesis was, is that the bees were lightening their population load to get down to a normal population that they would winter with.

Anne: Huh.

Jim: I liked that until I thought about the fact, well, they got to replace a queen. That's a fairly serious population reduction, but I don't know that bees would want to go into winter with a 50,000, 60,000 population of bees. Then, I also didn't think that bees have any business trying to replace a queen in August and September on their own.

Anne: That's something I didn't think about, but they would enter spring with a young queen. There's bound to be a lot of drones around in the late summer. As long as it's not too late, and the drones are dying, why not stick with that hypothesis?

Jim: The other reason I decided I didn't like it, was that they have absolutely no honey stores. The only thing they can acquire, what would it be? About 30 or 40 pounds in a wild colony to survive the winter?

Anne: The swarm would die, but the ones that were left behind, would end up with--

Jim: Oh, yes. Okay. We're on the same page. I'm talking about the swarm.

Anne: Okay. Yes. The swarm has the old queen, no comb, no honey, except what they carried in their honey stomachs. I got to say, I think they're doomed. I thought you were trying to say that the original parent colony was lightening its workforce, its force that's going to be gobbling up all its honey all winter. I like where you're going there, but if it's evolution happening, I don't know. We're seeing it as it's happening, and only a small number of hives do this. It's not a real common thing. It's really uncommon.

Jim: Yes. I've already admitted, I haven't had that I know of. I didn't see one this year. The only thing I didn't like was that they have to replace a queen late in the season. I didn't like the fact that the swarm is seemingly doomed, and always was. Maybe it was just leaving for the good of the hive. I mean, that's not the only altruistic behavior that bees have sometimes.

Anne: Possibly. As evolution goes on, not every change is a good change. It might be a dead end. The ones that do it and die out in the fall or winter, they're not breeding anymore. Can't breed when you're dead.

Jim: No, you cannot, so they're out of the pool. [chuckles]

Anne: Yes, but what if you do catch one? It's not as dire as it is for them just going to the woods. If a person catches a swarm, they could actually make it work. You know that rhyme that they used to say that, "A swarm in May is worth a load of hay?" Swarm in June is worth a something.

Jim: Silver spoon.

Anne: "June, silver spoon, and a swarm in July is not worth a fly." I hate that. I hate that saying, because it just gets repeated all the time. Honestly, I think it came from 1861 or something. We can take care of swarms that we catch too late for normal buildup, because we can help them build up.

Jim: I always thought that rhyme was repeated with an air of honey productivity.

Anne: Ah, okay.

Jim: That a swarm in July wasn't worth a fly, because you wouldn't get any honey from it. That was what everybody wanted in the 1860s. They weren't really--

Anne: They only thought one season ahead--[crosstalk]

Jim: I'm not defending the rhyme, I don't care for it either. I thought, "Why did you want a silver spoon? I think it just rhymed with June. I never thought it was a great rhyme anyway, but it is constantly repeated- [crosstalk]

Anne: Yes, we got to just cut that off.

Jim: -and it's been repeated for a hundred years.

Anne: I'm sorry I repeated that.

Jim: Now, you're passing it along.

Anne: Oh. Yes, if they were thinking ahead to the next year, "Hey, you've got another colony. It's going to give you honey next year." What if it dies of starvation, or something before next year comes, because it was a late swarm? I wanted to talk about ways to preserve those late swarms with you today, Jim.

Jim: That's where I want you to go. Tell me what you would do. Right now, let's just say you pick up a three-pound swarm with one of your marked coins. Then, you've got two situations. You've got the parent colony having to replace a coin, and you've got a swarm in August. We'll say August instead of September. Do the same thing in September for the most part here in Ohio. What are you going to do with these late bees? It's like getting a Christmas present when it's not Christmas.

Anne: [chuckles] Yes, let's look at it that way. The parent colony, I wouldn't think about it at all. They are raising their own queens. It's not going to help you to call around to the suppliers begging to get a queen, because the bees won't accept that queen anyways. They're raising some. You got to hope that she gets mated well.

Of course, you're checking all your colonies to see if they're heavy enough, and you'll maybe notice that one's a bit light and feed it. I wanted to talk about the swarm you might catch. They are a three-pound swarm with an older queen. Certainly, you're not going to put them on foundation, and expect them to thrive. They need comb. You need to give them some comb that some other colony made already.

You could even take some frames of honey from another colony if they're going gangbusters. Hey, take it from what you might have harvested. Share it with this new swarm. If you don't have enough comb, maybe your mentor will give you, or sell you some comb. If there's not enough honey, feed them. You got to feed them well before it really gets cold, because they got to thicken up that syrup. What else is there, Jim?

Jim: Well, before you get away from that, I really want to support what you're saying. You've got to give them comb. If you're a new beekeeper, and you don't have it, you've got to go bum it, or you've got to give the swarm away to someone who does have it. To put them on foundation, that's just going to be a slow death for that swarm.

Anne: Yes, beg, borrow, steal some comb. You might have enough comb in one of your other colonies if you have bees already that you can take some out and use it for this swarm. Your swarm might not become a double deep full of comb, bees, and food for winter. It might just become a 6 frame nuc. We know they can live through the winter if you care for them. Yes, comb is so important. Definitely people should always remember, get more comb created.

Please don't say, "Drawn comb." There's nothing like-- The comb is, if it's drawn, it's comb. If it's comb, it's drawn. There's a drawn comb. I've heard people say, "Undrawn comb." I say, "What?" They say, "Foundation." I was like, "Oh, you mean foundation?" [chuckles]

Jim: Well, what I was trying to specify when I said drawn comb, was it's not a partial frame, a sheet of foundation that the bees started working on. It needs to be a complete aged-

Anne: Complete-

Jim: -I want to say drawn comb again, but you just said, "Don't do that."

Anne: -frame of comb.

Jim: [chuckles] It's got to be a complete frame of comb, not one they're still building.

Anne: I'm a nitpicker.

Jim: I'll try to watch that.

Anne: [chuckles]

Jim: Listen, I want to also say, don't go crazy. This swarm was atypical, and it's at the wrong season, and the wrong time, so don't go tearing into your other beehives, taking comb, taking honey stores. Then, I'm afraid you're going to have two colony deaths in the winter.

Anne: Oh, yes. Don't take to their detriment. Yes, but to take a little that they can donate out, I might, for something that has two deeps, or maybe you could start it on mediums. You just use some of your supers frames to help this swarm out. If I had a colony with two deeps and some supers, I wouldn't hesitate to take two frames of honey out of it to help out the swarm.

Then, I would try to add combs that I got from some other place, like a different colony. I'd take a bit from this colony, a bit from that colony. I'd beg a bit from my mentor. I'd put a call out to my club, and maybe three different people would bring me a comb or something like that.

Jim: That would be good. That's good.

Anne: You got to use your club people. They love to help people. Then, you help them.

Jim: Let's pause and take a break, and hear from our sponsor. Then, we'll come back, and figure out how we can still continue to help this colony, and what it's going to take to hopefully get it survived.

Anne: All right.

[music]

Betterbee: Looking to raise your own queens your way? Better Bees got you covered with everything you need. Crafting and marking tools, queen cages, mating nuc boxes, the works. It's all high quality gear to help you raise strong, productive queens, and keep your genetics local, and well-adapted to your region. Now, if all that sounds a little bewildering, no worries, you can skip the setup, and fast track your hive with Better Bees' locally raised, mated northern queens.

Heads up, inventory is limited. Call 1-800-632-3379 to reserve yours today. They ship overnight, Monday through Thursday. Whatever your queen plans are this season, visit betterbee.com, or give them a buzz at 1-800-632-3379.

Jim: All right. Let's just set up a hypothetical situation. We did pick up a nice swarm, must have been three pounds. It had a queen that we knew was in it. It's in late August. We've already discussed the things you can do. You said you would take two frames of honey out. What would you do? Would you try to make a 6 frame colony in upstate New York, and see if you could feed it?

Jim: Yes, that's exactly what I would do. With the time left until the first frost, they're collecting some nectar, but it's not a lot of time. I would just try to get it up to 6 frames, and that could be in a 10 frame box anyways. I knew somebody a while back that would just fill in the excess space in a box with rigid insulation. It was basically insulating the colony, but on the inside to shrink a 10 frame box down to whatever central number of frames that the bees were filling out nicely. I always thought that was pretty clever. Does that make sense?

Jim: I really like that idea. I've never heard it before.

Anne: It's a crazy idea.

Jim: I really like it, because I was going to ask you a trick question. I don't know if Better Bee sells them or not, but the old beekeepers would have used follower boards.

Anne: Oh, yes, we sell those. They're great for just taking up maybe a centimeter of extra space against the wall. This is like styrofoam follower boards. The person who told me about it was named Nancy. Yes, that was a great idea of cutting this rigid foam about the size of deep frames, and just vertically lining them up inside frames all tight together to fill in empty spaces, instead of having empty foundation frames or something.

Jim: I don't want to go down a rabbit hole here, but I wonder, did you say her name was Nancy or Mancy?

Anne: Nancy.

Jim: I wonder if Nancy insulated the top and the bottoms too.

Anne: Definitely the top. I would say on the bottom, my suggestion would be to put any kind of a small colony like that right on top of a big one. The big one doesn't have inner cover. It doesn't have outer cover. It just has a double screen board. You could make something like that yourself if you want. It's just two layers of-- Darn, what's that stuff called, Jim?

Jim: 8-mesh hardware cloth.

Anne: That's exactly the name of it. In a frame, or cover the hole in an inner cover with two layers of that 8-mesh and say, "This is my double screen board," if you didn't want to go buy one. Then, the heat from the ones below, helps the ones above to live. They have their own little exit from the one above, opposite side of the stack from the big one that's below. I actually got a little colony that was hanging in a tree on four pathetic combs in early October to go through the winter, and become a full-size hive the next year by doing that with the double screen board.

Jim: Just to be sure I understand and, again, chasing rabbits, did you just put the entire little frame nest in a box, or did you actually put them on combs?

Anne: It was weird. We were planning on moving their combs into frames, and then supplementing them with frames of honey. When we laid the branch with the four combs and the bees on the table, the bees all just walked straight onto [chuckles] the two frames of honey.

Jim: Oh.

Anne: We didn't have to do anything. There wasn't any brood. They did have a queen. They just helped us out with the whole transfer. We gave them two more frames and put them above a big warm colony with the double screen board, and their own entrance out the back. It was a gamble, but it worked out.

Jim: When you use a double screen, you put the top colony fairly close to the bottom colony, don't you? You wouldn't put it on top of a super.

Anne: Oh, no, it was just the brood boxes of the bottom colony, and this new baby one up on top. Then, they each have their own queen. Nobody can get to each other, but they're sharing heat. [crosstalk]

Jim: They're sharing heat, so long as it's close, but they need to be close together, not separated by equipment.

Anne: Yes, good point. You don't want to have a tall winter colony, and then just plunk something up there. They'll just be cold. The other thing we did with that one, and I suggest anybody else does it, is we put some miticide in there. We put something that wasn't real harsh and smelly, because they're such a small colony, and they had no brood. We just put in some HopGuard, I think it was back then. These days, it would probably be Apivar or VarroxSan. I wouldn't go slapping a thymol or a formic acid treatment on a small colony like that, but they probably have mites. They were flying around from some strong, strong hives in the fall.

Jim: I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't have mites.

Anne: I wouldn't want to take 300 bees away from them to do a test though. [chuckles]

Jim: That's a good point. Don't take 300 bees from a colony that has 1,200 bees to test them, right. Overall, you seem to be energetic about making this August, September swarm be there next spring. Do whatever it takes. You're a beekeeper, you got some resources. If you don't have resources, go get them.

Anne: Yes, it's also that at the end of summer, or the beginning of fall, I have more time. I'm more likely to say, "Hey, why don't we see if we can make this one live through winter?" If it was, mid-July, I would say, "Ah, darn it, a swarm. I don't have time for that." My helper would probably go, "I want to collect it." I was like, "No. All right, collect it. We're just going to put it with this other colony right there. Put it around top, boom, and we have work to do." In September, it's more like, "Oh, let's do a project."

Jim: Let's do a thing.

Anne: Let's do a thing.

Jim: It sounds like you're both beekeepers. I would always do a thing. I just couldn't help it. Our time is pretty much up. You got any last sentence, or two of admonition you want to say to the listeners about this topic?

Anne: I want you to make sure that you're always getting your bees to make more comb.

Jim: You'll be ready for that occasional late season swarm.

Anne: Yes.

Jim: All right.

Anne: Or everything else.

Jim: Good to have comb. I always enjoy talking with you, until we can do it again.

Anne: Thanks, Jim. Me too.

Jim: Want to say bye.

Anne: Bye, Jim.

[music]

[00:20:23] [END OF AUDIO]